Barnstorming
Curtis JN-4, Barnstorming Jenny (Burns, Oregon, 1920) We are the angry mob
We read the papers everyday day
We like who like
We hate who we hate
But we're also easily swayed
--The Angry Mob, Kaiser Chiefs
_______
Ranger question of the Day:
Could this be a fabricated incident, performed with
hand-held signaling flares from the ground?
_______
Fairy tales begin with "Once upon a time;" war stories start with "This is no bullshit." This sounds like b.s.
Sen. Mel Martinez tells a tale of pilots bobbing and weaving, banking back and forth and shooting defensive flares (Martinez's Plane Evades Ground Fire).
Ranger wonders about this incident, realizing this is a flirtation with the world of conspiracy theory, but the tale as told doesn't hold water. This could not be considered a war story as war stories usually contain a grain of truth.
"A military cargo plane carrying Florida Sen. Mel Martinez, two other senators and a House member was forced to take evasive maneuvers and dispatch flares to avoid ground fire after taking off from Baghdad.
"The lawmakers said their plane, a C-130, was under fire Thursday night from three rocket-propelled grenades over the course of several minutes as they left for Amman, Jordan."
"After the first burst, the pilots maneuvered aggressively and set off flares used for drawing incoming fire away from aircraft.
"Once the flares lit up the sky, lawmakers said, two more RPGs were fired as the pilots continued maneuvering."
Here are the facts as Ranger sees them:
[1] RPG's have a maximum effective range of +/- 350 meters
[2] All 130's in Iraq are further than 350 meters from hostile fire
[3] Flares are not a counter-measure for RPG's, which are direct-fire weapons.
Flares are for heat-seeking type surface-to-air missiles (AGM's)
[4] If this is the closest that warmonger Martinez comes to hostile fire, he is a lucky dude
[5] This does not authorize hostile fire pay for Martinez. But it does for the air crew.
[6] Martinez must be desperate to appear as having been in harm's way
Rep. Bud Cramer (D-AL) estimates the plane's altitude to have been 6,000 ft. If so, then an RPG is absolutely implausible. The attack was not confirmed by CENTCOM, which said they were unaware of the incident.
On the flipside: If this was a legitimate attack, then it shows our U.S. flights are not secure even when they are ferrying VIPs, and we do not use the term "fairy" lightly. What does this say about the surge?
On the last Republican VIP tour, McCain said downtown Baghdad was like a walk in the park; Martinez portrays a shooting gallery. Maybe they should get on the same page before 2008.
At least McCain would have been able to spot legitimate ground fire, whereas Martinez wouldn't recognize it even if he saw it in a Rambo movie.
A bright point, however, is that the return flight will take these Senators through several airport concourses, which will feature manifold airport toilet opportunities.
A phony attack, for a phony Senator, in a phony war.
Labels: barnstorming, martinez plane attacked
posted by rangeragainstwar at 8:18 PM
11 Comments:
Good evening, RangerAgainstWar.
I was told by a person involved in a similar incident that C-130s have routinely been targeted by missile-firing insurgents within minutes of takeoff. Generally speaking, the weapons being used are some kind of propelled ordnance that can cause a lot of damage to the C-130s, which are apparently like lumbering albatrosses taking off from that airport.
The problem, as it was described to me, is that the planes are essentially incapable of anything close to rapid ascent: the crew member who described one of his incidents to me said they had to shut down everything, including the air conditioning and ventilation systems, and they still couldn't climb out of range fast enough. He said they, too, were puffing flares and (I believe) chaff, to draw off the missiles, but it wasn't doing any good.
As the story was recounted to me, the pilot finally nosed the C-130 over to build speed and change the flight path dynamic so the flying ordnance would go where the lead had targeted instead of where the diving behemoth would be.
All told, in a matter of just a couple of minutes, the C-130 managed to evade two volleys of three projectiles. By the time it was over, the crew members were nearly blacking out from the heat inside what had become a giant green EZ-Bake oven with noisy engines.
A Marine colonel on board would later use all kinds of joyful profanity in praise of the pilot and crew for saving his bacon.
As it was told to me, this kind of pot-shot attack is not at all uncommon. The first question I had was, Why in God's name are there no patrols securing the take-off and landing flight paths? All I got for that one was a look like I'd made a funny (which I suppose, in retrospect, I should have acted like I had).
I'll tell you right now that it didn't occur to me to ask what the projectiles were. I swear, I think the term "RPG" was used; but, in retrospect and from what you noted about RPG range, I am now uncertain that could possibly be right. Whatever they were, several things are clear: the things were on their own once they'd been shot; they weren't anything like the legendary "white telephone poles" of another era and war; they could get to a slowly rising plane quite a few hundred feet off the deck; and the pilots were all kinds of excited about not letting one of the things hit.
Anyway, that's my two-cents worth of information about this.
The Dark Wraith will be avoiding the cheapo flights that go through Baghdad International.
The ol' Chief will be avoiding any flights, anywhere.
Depending on the payload, JATO will provide a kick in the arse. Fat Albert goes up real fast but you know they have no payload aboard. That herc carries all the Blue Angels crew & equipment.
Anyway, your picture of the Curtis JN-4, can't tell if it has or had pontoons. In 1919, four Curtis Jenny seaplanes left the U.S. and one of them JN-4 made it all the way to Europe. Being seaplanes they could land in the ocean to be refueled by Navy ships.
Chief,
That's what we were trying to say about the jet assist. we don't get bogged down in technical details, because we don't know technical details; we are Rangers.
My only experience with 130's was their use in the UW role, as STOLA on hasty dirt strips. I know that they can climb away fast. I've also jumped them when we were flying nap of the earth, and then going to jump altitude. Fast climbers those.
dark wraith,
It seems that it's a difficult task to separate phony war stories from fact. If it is fire-and-forget weapons being shot at the 130's, then they must be RPG's. When I say +/-375 m effective range, that is against a bunker-type, non-moving target.
The RPG is not an anti-aircraft weapon because of the backblast characteristics.
They are used to shoot aircraft such in Blackhawk Down that are on the ground, or near the ground. Ranger has read references of modified RPG's that can be fired at helicopters in flight. The back blast is redirected with a funnel, to protect the gunner.
I agree there should be patrols around the airfields, and certainly, in the flight paths. If this is not being done, this is criminal malfeasance, and is indicative of a slipshod effort.
Putting flares out for RPG's is a meaningless gesture, as they are not heat-seeking.
Assuming the 130's are slow-flying, and assuming that they are flying at a speed of 300 mph, they would outdistance an RPG in matters of seconds. If they were at 6,000 ft. as the Rep. said, the only thing that could bring them down would be an AGM, or a ZSU-23, or a drunk pilot. But we know that AF pilots don't drink.
If we cannot protect flight paths, how can we control what is happening on the ground?
Closing thought: if you have an aircraft with VIPs aboard, esp. hawk VIP's, couldn't you have two attack helicopters escorting it down the flightpath to suppress groundfire?
i read about that and as soon as i was done thinking martinez doesn't even realize what he just went though i tried to imagine what really happened. but, one thing for sure, planes carrying VIP's are taking groundfire at one of the very first pieces of ground taken in bagdhad. that airport is the single most vital piece of turf there. if they lose that, they lose everything. all of it. including any chance of bugging out.
think about that. then try to imagine how to spin this to show that your surge is working.
i got a show to play.
minstrel boy,
As you say, if we can't secure that airfield, doesn't bode well for the surge. Damn inconvenient bit of news, that. Have a good show,
L.
The thing to keep in mind is if the crew saw the attack, they probably only saw a flash and puff of smoke - which could be anything from an RPG to a Stinger-esque MANPAD. The crew will treat it as a worst case scenario and figure out the details later.
Also remember that often these airfields are close to built up areas, which can make hasty attacks, as opposed to a planned attack from a prepared site, hard to detect/deter.
Dan,
[1] Correct--the crew should make a maximum response.
[2] Do MANPADs give a lock-on signature? I don't know, but they should.
[3] Why would a VIP or any aircraft not have a combat aircraft escort to suppress any such fires?
[4] Since we've rebuilt that whole country, why can't we rebuild a runway that is isolated from their cities?
[5] This reminds me of the Stalingrad scenario of the last airfield being held by the German army. If there ever is a general uprising against the U.S. military, the air fields will be key battlefields. Without a secure airhead, our forces are lost.
This is the only significance of the Martinez incident: if they' are shooting at our aircraft now, at the height if our surge, then what would happen if a transition to general conventional combat occurs.
[6] It's a shame that our C in C became an airhead years back. This is one airhead that we should secure.
minstrel boy,
Shall we call this, Little Stalingrad? Perhaps, Berlin Airlift II?
DIen Bien Phu II. When the Viet Mihn were able to get artillery within range of the airstrip and close it, the French position at Dien Bien Phu was doomed.
My understanding is that the insurgency has recently had some success with the SA-7. If you shoot an SA-7 from head-on against a turboprop aircraft like the C-130 it essentially behaves like an unguided RPG because its infrared head can't get a lock. But then you want to start firing off flares like crazy so that if one is also coming at you from the rear it'll get confused. Note that Iran is most probably *not* the source of these SA-7's, the SA-7 has been widely cloned and there are literally hundreds of thousands of them still in existence around the world. Iran is actively manufacturing the SA-16, a much better MANPAD. If SA-16s had been deployed, you'd see downed C-130's, period, because they have far more sophisticated infrared sniffers that are not easily defeated by flares and are much better at locking onto engine pods from the forward quarter. It's roughly equivalent to a Stinger in capabilities. Luckily the Iranians appear to be reserving these things for their own defense for the time being.
-BT
badtux,
According to Sen. Richard Shelby, "It was dark as the dickens outside, and I was looking out the little window. I saw the red glare of a shell or a missile coming up toward our plane."
Since he sees this from the side window, it doesn't appear that the suspected missiles came from the front. A hand-held star cluster can give off a red glare and give the impression of being a rocket to a non-combat-type like Shelby and Co.
Ranger still suspects this was a fabricated incident. But in the possibility that it wasn't, it shows the weakness of our position in this country if they can shoot at our aircraft at will. This speaks poorly for the surge.
Surely there are AGMs available on the world market from non-Iran sources. And if Iran were supplying the AGMs, they would be wise to use foreign-made missiles vs. Iranian-made, which gives them plausible denial.
Your Dien Bien Phu comment is a good analogy. I do believe that there are large quantities of AGMs in Iraq, but they are being held for a significant campaign. They won't be used on individual helter-skelter type attacks.
Just like at Dien Bien Phu, the artillery was not unleashed until the Viet Minh achieved the mass and concentrated firepower to influence the battle.
My big fear is that our command in Iraq is not evaluating this threat option, which I believe is a real possibility.
The occupants of the aircraft in question
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