RANGER AGAINST WAR: Political Mathematics <

Tuesday, October 28, 2008

Political Mathematics


He told me,
Red means run, son,
numbers add up to nothin'

--Powderfinger
, Neil Young


We are in a tragedy

--Lt. Gen. James Gavin (1967)

_______________

"(T)he size of the force we deploy has little effect on the rate of attrition of enemy forces." The determining factor was not battlefield superiority, which usually went to the Americans, but the choice of battles. In a vast majority of cases, the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese controlled whether they would stand and fight. And when they did, according to the study, it was usually because they had initiated the battle.

. . .even though the U.S. forces had vastly superior kill ratios on the battlefield, the enemy, at almost any time, could limit losses -- and frustrate Westmoreland's attrition strategy -- by simply refusing to stand and fight.
--They Marched into Sunlight, Maraniss (p.219)
______________

"They Marched into Sunlight" is David Maraniss's sobering account of the Battle of Ong Thanh in Vietnam, 1967. But more sobering than the sad facts of that engagement is the sad fact that the mistakes of 1967 are the same ones the U.S. Army is making 40 years later.

In a nutshell,
the Viet Cong forces facing the 1st Division in October '67 outsoldiered their U.S. counterparts and due to a ground commander's tactical blunders, two U.S. Companies were decimated. Among the errors:

  • Technology hindered U.S. battlefield tactics and efficiency because the U.S. forces placed undue reliance on air strikes, which in this battle did not give U.S. forces an advantage.
  • Poor tactical air planning. In fact, tac air may have given enemy forces a window of opportunity to maneuver and exploit their initial initiative. Air, artillery and heloes did not tip the scale.
  • Company and Battalion mortars were not employed in this fight, although they were set up and registered and within supporting ranges.
  • Weapons malfunctions played a company-level role. M-16's, M-60's and M-79's actually had battlefield shutdowns which were instrumental in this unit's destruction. No follow-up investigations were conducted, except concerning the M-16 and its ammunition problems.
  • Faulty intel. Sending an Infantry Battalion Minus versus an NVA Regiment. Poor Fire Support Plan and coordination of fires.
  • No attached assets; no aerial rocket artillery laid on.
  • Poor Fire Support Plan and coordination of fires.
  • No reserve forces in position.
  • Weapons obviously not test-fired prior to mission.
  • No automatic emergency resupply evident.
  • No Medevac support on call.
  • No LAWs available to the Infantry.
  • No unity of command; poor prior planning; no concept of operation or logical commander's guidance.
  • Units not mutually supporting.
  • Units were depleted and not combat ready.

Is this all blood on the risers, only of interest to old-timers and history buffs? Not when the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are also reporting malfunction M-249's, over-reliance on tactical air, and ditto everything else listed above.

41 years later and we are still dealing cards from the bottom of the same deck.

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45 Comments:

Blogger The Minstrel Boy said...

yup.

well said ranger.

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:11:00 AM EST  
Blogger deuddersun said...

Problem is, most of the current crop of neo-cons running the country never served or they might not be making the same dam mistakes all over again.

Enter McSame, who did serve and was a POW, but he's stuck with the chickenhawk base and the badly managed wars of the neo-cons. In order to keep the base happy, he has no other choice but to continue the bullshit bluster. The only way out of this is to elect Obama, who has enough high level military on his side to help him get us out of Iraq and actually capture or kill Bin Fergotten.

BTW, is it just me, or does anyone-else find it ironic that Al Queda literally translates to "The Base", which is what Bush and McSame have always played to?

d.

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:25:00 AM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

MB,
Well thank you, I consider this a compliment of the highest order.
Yesterday I had breakfast with a member of 1-28-1 Div of that same day.His unit was on that same ground 2 days before 17 oct 67..What a difference a day makes.He had little to say about anything above platoon as he was a 18 yo buck sgt but he remembers scuttlebutt about the 2-28 Bn Cdr dropping the ball.
Isn't it a small Army? jim

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:40:00 AM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

duedersun,
As you know I endorse or back neither party or their candidates.I wouldn't hit a bullfrog in the ass with either-as my Dad used to say.BUT i'd kiss either on the ass in public square IF they'd actually have the balls to end these phoney wars to include Afghanistan,and I'd give them time to draw a crowd. jim

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:43:00 AM EST  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just listening to an NPR show about "undecided voters". How can anyone be undecided at this point? Anyway, one guys point was that he was afraid to vote for Obama because he fears Obama will pull out of Iraq "now that we are so close to winning." Ai yi yi.

What does all this talk of "winning" mean anyway? A stable, democratic Iraq? Snowballs chance in hell.

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:56:00 AM EST  
Blogger deuddersun said...

Ranger, I respect your public stance on the candidates, but remember, it ain't what you say, it's what you do.

If you really want us out of these wars, you really only have one choice. Now I ain't preachin' to ya Brother, I'm just saying...

As for Afghanisan, I got a personal stake in that one, being from New Yawk and all, I lost one of my best friends, a NYC firefigher on 9/11 and I want Bin Fergotten dead. So bad, in fact, that I tried to re-enlist, but they told me I was too old, besides which my re-enlistment code was RE3P, medically unfit for further military service.

Had Bush and the neo-cons been sincere in their efforts, we might have gotten Bin Fergotten by now, our troops would be home and Iraq would still be a bulwark against terrorism rather than the training ground it is now.

Just my 2 cents, as they say.

d.

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:57:00 AM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

dueddersun,
I'm happy that you spend your 2 cents here. We need all the change we can get.
I roger your feelings except they are feelings -this is not the issue. Afghanistan didn't atk NYC- it was Al Q.and the PWOT in Afg is not addressing that issue.We are there to address a threat not build a country from the ground up- this is bullshit of the highest order.
US policy consistently addresses the side issues and remains unfocused on the real issues.What in the hell are we really doing in Irq and Afg? It's not terrorism thats for sure.
I would return to active duty in a NY minute IF a real threat existed. jim

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:05:00 AM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Rick,
well the door prize is what we'll win.And door prizes are never needed or useful.
How can we actually talk about winning when the economy is falling around our ears.We've only seen the tip of the ice burg so far.Will AFG or Irq help us when we go belly up? jim

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:09:00 AM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Rick,
I just have to come back and state my case more clearly- in case i'm not clear.I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS IF IRQ OR AFGH IS FREE AND DEMOCRATIC.This is not why we elect Presidents!Our President should focus on America-and pls don't say i'm an isolationist or Amurica firster.I'M NOT.
If democracy is so fucking important then let the UN or the democratic nations combine and fight all the damned wars they want to spread it.This is not why we have an army-it's called DoD for a reason. It's not DoPremptive and elective wars.
Our collective brains are so full of shit that we deserve to end up in a septic tank. jim

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:19:00 AM EST  
Blogger Lisa said...

Rick98,

Ay yi yi--I'm with you, Ricky.

I was gonna say, some people just don't get it. But thinking better on it, they do -- it's just that the message they've caught has been from FOX news.

We need an Air America on this side of the ocean.

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:22:00 AM EST  
Blogger Lisa said...

d.

Good observation on "The Base" translation.

How do their ideological "fanatics" differ from ours? It's all about killing and revenge and righteousness and piety, is it not?

When the press says "Radical Muslim fundamentalist al-Sadr," could they not as easily apply that sobriquet to any number of U.S. "Radical Christian Fundamentalist"?

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:27:00 AM EST  
Blogger deuddersun said...

Yeah, Ranger, I can see where you're coming from on that democracy thing. Hell, someone needs to come and liberate us so we can enjoy some of that good old fashioned democracy ourselves.

I'm linking you now.

d.

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:28:00 AM EST  
Blogger deuddersun said...

Well, ya hit the nail on the head on that one Lisa. I'm in agreement 100%.

d.

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:30:00 AM EST  
Blogger Lisa said...

Thanks, d.

(We'll link to you, yoo.)

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:41:00 AM EST  
Blogger deuddersun said...

Why thank you, Lisa, I appreciate it. I do have to organize my blogroll, I'm a kinda messy old fart.

I am tackling that racism issue as best I can tho. I think it needs to be brought out in the open.

Last evening I stopped for a beer at a local watering hole that caters to working class guys, construction, HVAC, mechanics, etc. I was surprised that every guy I talked to finally admitted that they were going to vote for Obama. Maybe the "reverse Bradley effect" will kick in after all.

I can only hope.

d.

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:48:00 AM EST  
Blogger Lisa said...

d.

You're welcome. You do good work.

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:49:00 AM EST  
Blogger The Mad Dog said...

Jim...if you end up kissing anyone on the ass, I'll shoot them for you immediately thereafter. The flame is burning slow and hot, Brother.

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 3:09:00 PM EST  
Blogger The Mad Dog said...

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

-Edward R. Murrow

"Good night and good luck."

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 3:12:00 PM EST  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Range--I think that if the gov't lied about Iraq, they lied about Afghanistan as well. 9/11 was mentioned earlier--well, I'm naturally suspicious, have been since 18. Too much does not add up for my liking. Karzei being an old Unocal man doesn't help either. Will vote Obama, though I don't believe HE is the magic panacea, but beats the hell out of McSame and Sultry SarahPoleon. Maybe, just maybe, we'll learn and stay out of these snake-handcuffing, skunk-perfuming wars of empire. Oh well, I can dream can't i?

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:17:00 PM EST  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ranger -- Looks like you would have had a really short post if you had just listed what was done right.

deuddersun -- Here's a prediction for you: if Obama gets elected, he'll get us out of Iraq and Afghan. about like Nixon got us out of Vietnam.

GSJ

Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 9:40:00 PM EST  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was in country at the time and althought I vaguely remember it, I was not involved. But I was around enough other clusterfucks that this one isn't surprising.

Deudderson, the one thing to remember about McCain is that his military and POW experiences have absolutely nothing to with his qualifications (or lack thereof) to be president. He had hot meals in the wardroom every day, commuted to work for a few hours from the carrier, and then he got unlucky. To follow this chain of logic, neither Ranger, Minstrel Boy, nor I, all of whom spent time on the ground, is any less qualified for the presidency than is McCain. Actually, I think we're more qualified, just because I think we're more or less sane.

Further, Deudderson, WRT to 9/11, I lost my godson in the WTC. I'm a retired regular army officer and I immediately volunteered for recall to active duty. There are no codes denying recall of those like me, but I was turned down because I was already working as a cleared intel guy. Given the way they've fucked the pooch, I'm very happy they didn't take me up on my offer. You should be glad as well. We haven't missed a thing. This whole PWOT (Ranger: phony war on terror) has turned out to be a massive goatfuck.

Ranger, as you know, I agree wholeheartedly with this: "I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS IF IRQ OR AFGH IS FREE AND DEMOCRATIC." But I also think it's time to take a stand. What's the old saying? "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." I've already voted. Held my nose while doing so, but I think you know how I voted.

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 12:21:00 AM EST  
Blogger deuddersun said...

Well, fellas, let me try to clear up some misconceptions here. First, I am against the war in Iraq, always have been. My point is that had Bush and the neo-cons "stayed the course" in Afghanistan, rather than invading a country that was a bulwark against terrorism and had nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11, we might have dismantled Al Queda, killed Bin Fergotten and all of our troops would be home now.

Like you guys, it's no concern of mine whether or not some other country enjoys democracy. My concern is whether or not we here in the US of A enjoy democracy. Bush has only helped our enenmies grow stronger by providing a training ground and rallying point for them in Iraq. Do I still think Bin Laden must die? Abso-fucking-lutely. After that, who cares? AS far as the phoney war on terror goes, look deeper, who's really winning there? KBR, Haliburton, Blackwater, etc. There is not now, nor has there ever been a plan to "win" in Iraq. The profit is in the "treatment", not the "cure". And as far as Obama getting us out like Nixon got us out of Vietnam, who gives a shit as long as we're out. We can train a soldier, sailor, airman or Marine in 10 fucking weeks and send him/her into combat. They have had 6 years to train the Iraqi's to defend their own country and they still claim the Iraqi's arent't ready to "stand up"! Tuff shit! Besides, we have already accomplished the mission as defined by Bush. No WMD's, Saddam gone. Free elections. New Constitution. Time to come home.

I am also going to vote for Obama. I have no reservations about it, in fact I actively promote his candidacy on my own site. As a Union guy, my main concern is creating and keeping jobs. I want a government that is more responsive to Main Street than Wall Street.

So, we agree on some things and disagree on others, isn't that what America is supposed to be about?

The important thing is we all agree on the most important thing, that it is time for a change and Obama is the man to bring that change to America.

d.

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:18:00 AM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

MC,
Thanks but I'd gladly perform this service-anyday of the week to include Time Square on NY's Eve. jim

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:32:00 PM EST  
Blogger Lisa said...

Hi d.,

Thank you for laying out your position. We probably don't disagree on much. The only difference is, we don't campaign for anyone. We're on the same track -- we know what our country needs and what is chaff.

Like you say, America is about tolerating reasoned dissent and engaging in civil dialog, with the goal of reaching an consensus. I believe we both strive to achieve those ends.

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:33:00 PM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Anon,
What a blast from the past-UNOCAL ,and of course Enron linkage. A long forgotten point that is very relevent to the AFGH. discussion.
Oh yes -to dream.... jim

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:36:00 PM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

deuddersun,
We have a disconnect-my Bullfrog statement is not my public stance- it's also my private belief.

Neither party or their candidates address the real issues facing America and this campaign is one big smoke screen obscuring a bleak future. Tax cuts my ass-this is crap-only increased funding and judicious budgetting and added revenue will propel us thru this economic mess.This is a lie and NOBODY calls either candidate on it.
Where is the money coming from to continue wars and address internal financial problems? jim

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:45:00 PM EST  
Blogger Lisa said...

anon,

I see your neologism for Ms. Palin. I prefer the simple anagram of her name, "plain". Sarah Plain --and there is her beauty for the average American.

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:46:00 PM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Publius,
The thing that really bothers me is that the Army NEVER distributed these lessons learned down to the platoon /company level officers.As a summer 68 IOBC officer we NEVER had any realistic classes or training on RVN.The only block of instruction was Hammer and Anvil/ Search and Destroy. We know how that one ended up and now we're following the same basic formula and calling it COIN.Killing is our business and business is good- remember that one?
I really appreciate that you say MB, and myself are basically sane but that's up in the air right now for Ranger. If sanity is what we see around us then I'll stick with Mad Celt and occupy the periphery. jim

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 1:56:00 PM EST  
Blogger deuddersun said...

If you want to read a good analysis of our current fiscal situation, I suggest you visit Moderate Man, a retired CEO and founder of the American Patriot Institute. He can be found at

http://moderateman.blogspot.com/

Oh, he's also a former combat Marine.

d.

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 2:16:00 PM EST  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not much to add to the excellent points raised above... seems like lessons just can't be learned about wading in the Big Muddy.

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:09:00 PM EST  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aloha, Ranger!

We still never learn...! I've never liked the M-249's... They've always failed when we needed them the most! Irregardless of what feed assembly we used...! :-(

Btw, Ranger, I've put two posts up on the Syrian incident... Could you take a gander and give me your take on it...? Mahalo!

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 7:14:00 PM EST  
Blogger FDChief said...

The Vietnam guys who were still around when I was a cherry called it "CRSS" - "Can't Remember Shit Syndrome". I think Dave Hackworth used to harp on it. The USA is famous for relearning the lessons of the last war and forgetting all the important stuff. Like the Bourbons, we tend to "learn nothing and forget nothing"...

Well, the current financial and soon-to-be-fiscal crisis will let the air out of the imperial gasbag fairly quickly. I suspect the issues will soon become not how to police the empire but how many Americans can live under a bridge on one can of Campbell's soup for how long.

But at least we'll have our shiny new F-22's!

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 at 11:14:00 PM EST  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just for the record I don't give a shit about every country on earth being free and democratic either. That's their own damn business. I used to ask the pro-war people early on why we weren't invading North Korea regarding actual WMD's and totalitarian systems, but that was when I was laboring under the misconception that they actual thought about things. It's all emotion.

Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 1:56:00 AM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Rick,
Let's throw in Zimbabwe with N. Korea.Same same. jim

Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 10:31:00 AM EST  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ranger,
I will not argue your feelings and opinions because those are yours, and yours alone.
I can respect your opinions, or disagree with them though I will confess a certain amount of agreement...most of the time.
However, that being said, I will have to disagree with you about Afghanistan because imo...they got what was coming to them in regards to 9/11.
They aided and abetted Al-Qaeda, and for that they get a share of the consequences as well...not that they had a lot to loose, but when they sided with AQ to wake up the Dragon by kicking it in the nose...well...it's intellectually dishonest to think that just because they live in a mud hovel that they get a pass because of their poverty.
The one thing I hope the Afghani's have learned...just because you have nothing to loose doesn't mean you can get away with any bad behavior.

Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 3:36:00 PM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

sheerahkhan,
How do you spell proportional or balanced response.?Yep, we shure did show themthere raghead bastards a thing or two.Great!
Thanks for sharing this -it makes the expenditure of life and national treasure seem so much more reasonable than my limited mind can grasp.Indeedy revenge and kicking dirt in their mudhut faces really showed them.That's probably why their economy is tanking-oops i'm sorry .Isn't our economy thats flipping like a fish out of water.
yep we sure showed them.
If this is foreign policy then lets start firing our diplomats. jim

Thursday, October 30, 2008 at 6:52:00 PM EST  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Thanks for sharing this -it makes the expenditure of life and national treasure seem so much more reasonable than my limited mind can grasp.Indeedy revenge and kicking dirt in their mudhut faces really showed them.That's probably why their economy is tanking-oops i'm sorry .Isn't our economy thats flipping like a fish out of water.
yep we sure showed them."

Jim, I can understand your anger, and I can respect that.
I'm also pretty sure that *if* our "balanced/proportional" response had gone accordingly as everyone thought it would...ie, nail Bin-Laden, and bugged out...with no detours to a Iraq, mind you, you would not be feeling this much anger towards my opinion.
As it is now...yes, the whole thing is a massive cluster-fuck of epic proportions, and we got ourselves a good tight hold on a couple of landmines called Afghanistan, and Iraq.
So, I'm reviewing my previous statement, my thoughts were along the lines that we were justified in going into Afghanistan, but our gov. did everything wrong that could possibly be done wrong, and so now...yeah...there we are making things worse...day by miserable day.
I sometimes think it's like the police surrounding the SLA house...they fired so many bullets into the building that the dam caught fire and house burnt down; And what surprised the police was that it caught fire.
What did they think would happen?
Same with Afghanistan...anyway...just a basic disagreement with my reasoning, Jim, I mean nothing personal by it.

Friday, October 31, 2008 at 11:45:00 AM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Sheerahkhan,

I do not mean offense, either; I just lack social skills. I could do with a little politesse to help further dialog, which is the purpose of these blogs.

I would first ask respectfully, why you and so many others believe that invading Afghanistan was the correct and legal response to 9-11? I mean, why not invade S.A.? We knew who the perpetrators were, and it is my contention that this was a legal concern from the outset. A criminal conspiracy.

Because they blew up two buildings and killed U.S. citizens, does that give us the right to attack their citizens in retaliation? That is O.T., eye for an eye. Doubtful even that the Taliban had foreknowledge of this event. Taliban and al-Qaeda being two separate organizations. The skills that al Q. learned in Taliban training camps were not those used in the execution of 9-11.

Far as the Cinque BBQ as a PWOT analogy: I knew both LAPD members Ron Ball and Arlie McCrae, who were ground commanders at the SLA shootout. They burned that fucker down on purpose by using hot CS on the roof.

Same tactic used by FBI at Quidby Island shootout and Waco. For justification after the fact, the story is: accidental fire. RIGHT!
Yes a perfect analogy.

So it seems we are burning Afghanistan down on purpose, just as in the SLA shootout.

jim

Friday, October 31, 2008 at 2:59:00 PM EST  
Blogger deuddersun said...

Ranger, I'm beat now, been celebrating my Phillies and gotta go to work tomorrow at 0400, but I will come back and tell you why we invaded Afghan and why it was the right thing to do, altho, since you are a former Army Officer, I'm surprised I have to. Then again, I was a Marine NCO...

Maybe that explain it.

d.

Friday, October 31, 2008 at 8:21:00 PM EST  
Blogger Lisa said...

d.,

Ranger will enjoy your explanation, I'm sure :) Have a safe day tomorrow.

Friday, October 31, 2008 at 8:36:00 PM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

deudersun,
There's a disconnect here- even tho i'm retired I'm still an officer -or so my id card indicates. I'm just not active. You however are an ex-Marine.Forever! Let's start from there:)

The invasion of Afgh is one of the worst US military blunders in history.The proof is that it's so fucked that the Army must subcontract to the Marines and Nato. :)
As a born and bred Pa boy I extend congrats on your sports win. jim

Saturday, November 1, 2008 at 9:26:00 AM EST  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

deuddersun - My point about Nixon and getting out of Vietnam was the time it took to do it. We were in Vietnam longer under Nixon than we were under Johnson; thus, if President O follows that model like I think he will...we've got a real long war ahead of us.

GSJ

Saturday, November 1, 2008 at 7:45:00 PM EST  
Blogger deuddersun said...

You however are an ex-Marine.Forever! Let's start from there:)

There is no such thing as an "ex-Marine", Sir. Once, Always, Forever.

Yeah, that parade was something, almost 3 million folks turned out for it.

GSJ, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Well, as to Afghan, I have decided to agree to disagree. I'm sure we both have valid points and it won't make any difference anyway what any of us think.

For those who have yet to vote, please do so on the 4th. It is your right and duty as an American Citizen and if you don't vote, you have no right to complain later on.

d.
Saepius Exertas, Semper Fidelis, Frater Infinitas

Sunday, November 2, 2008 at 10:50:00 AM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

dueddersun,
Ranger was just funnin' with you.

Please send your pov on the Afgh invasion-i'd like to examine it and see if i can amend my foregone conclusions. jim

Sunday, November 2, 2008 at 1:19:00 PM EST  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

GSJ,
Your point is taken.
I don't believe ANY president wants to be tagged with the stigma of having lost a war-even if inherited .
America is very reluctant to elect any antiwar candidate -historically.The closest we've come is Eisenhower with the hope he'd end Korea.But only a former General could pull that off.
I don't really sense a commitment by Obama to end either war.No cmt needed about McC's probable courses of action. jim

Sunday, November 2, 2008 at 1:32:00 PM EST  

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