Feel the Love, Part II
"Victory after all, I suppose!" he said,
feeling his aching head.
"Well, it seems a very gloomy business."
--The Hobbit, J. R. R. Tolkien
A soldier who won't fuck,
won't fight
--attributed to General Patton
________________
feeling his aching head.
"Well, it seems a very gloomy business."
--The Hobbit, J. R. R. Tolkien
A soldier who won't fuck,
won't fight
--attributed to General Patton
________________
[This post is a follow-on to "Feel the Love" (7 Dec 09) re. Command Sergeant Major (CSM) Teresa L. King]:
CSM Teresa King was the Commandant of the Drill Sergeant for the last two years, until her recent suspension for as-yet unspecified reasons. Ranger opposed her appointment in 2009 on the basis of her gender and rank, asking: Is the Army about sexual and social equality or does it exist to win wars? The two goals require different realities.
Further, why did King keep her post for two years? In the past, a command slot was a 12-month tour, especially in Tradoc / non-deployable school environments.
Some recent traffic in comments at the '09 post prompted this update -- the criticism there argued for the illusion that an enlisted man (EM) can be Commandant just because the school is an EM level course. If officers are isolated from the command structure, then how does the army expect the EM to understand officers and bond with them via daily contact? (CSM King's suspension was brought to Ranger's attention immediately after those comments supporting King.)
As fine as any CSM may be, he is still not an officer and lacks that perspective. They are CSM's exactly because they are not officers. If we are so sold on the concept of blurring the lines here, why not eliminate rank altogether?
Further, Ranger will never accept the presence of female soldiers in maneuver units on any battlefield. Nada! Wars, and specifically battles, are not won by sexually integrated units. Sex will continue to be a daily occurrence when a sexually-integrated unit exists. If a U.S. President cannot resist the urge to play with an intern, how can we expect soldiers to be more circumspect?
It's disingenuous to believe that soldiers, whether EM or officer, will not bump uglies wherever they chance to be. With women in the ranks, I call it "Roll Your Own," a variation of the old, "If you got em, smoke 'em." Them's the facts.
Minor point: In the original article on King she is quoted as yelling at a soldier, "Get off my grass!" Perhaps this was cited to show her toughness, but it means precisely nothing. Perhaps she was priming the soldier for service in the Green Zone, where the U.S. Embassy has paid untold sums of money to put lawns in the desert around the complex. Maybe that's a shout-out to all Iraqis: STAY OFF OUR GRASS!
Why did we need General Petraeus when a CSM would have done the same thing without even writing a new manual? "Keep off the grass" sums it up perfectly.
Labels: commandant of the drill sergeant school suspended, CSM King as commandant of drill instructors, csm teresa king
posted by rangeragainstwar at 9:14 PM
24 Comments:
To all,
todays yahoo news reports 3 AF Academy cadets are charged with sexual crimes.
these are the best and brightest.specially selected specimens and their little brains ruled their actions.
jim
I'm kind of wondering why, sometime early on in her 29 years of service, King couldn't have complete a college degree (if she hadn't), apply to OSC, complete it and receive a commission, if she really is the leadership material she is touted as being.
This seems an extreme interpretation of the old adage "everyone knows the NCOs run the Army, Corps, etc".....except they don't. Indepsensable? Yes. Running things? Nope. Since when can NCOs excercise "intent"? So an NCO (albeit a Staff NCO) excercises intent whereas a company grade officer (at least LT.s) does not? Bizarre. Traditionally, the job of SNCO is supervising NCOs and acting as advisors to - NOT SUPPLANTING - the command!
There are two jobs for the military; Comabat and preparing for combat. How can someone who has done neither train those who must?
I know. I am preaching to the pope.
Any how, on the topic of sex, this falls into the realm of the values/culture that made me, personally, not suitable for a career in the service and that seems, from the military perspective, to be self defeating and futile. My observation is that the miltary places far too much emphasis on conservative christian values and insisting on maintaining the appearance of such throughout the command structure.
My impression is that this has gotten worse in recent years, with the inclusion of more female personnel and the desire to mimick corporate culture; sensitivity training and all.
It's really schizophrenic. From the minute you fall out of the busses and the recruit depot it's all assualt and kill - you don't go down to the mess hall to get some chow, you assualt the mess hall warrior face full on, etc, etc ad nauseum - yet at the same time you are supposed to be this shiny example; a chivalrous Knight, a chaste Christian Captain America.....who assualts and kills everything in sight.
The burden on officers to maintain the cultrurally expected appreance is far greater than that imposed on enlisted personnel.
The idea that a bunch of young,physically fit, lonely, bored people aren't going to hook up for sex is exemplary of this schizophrenic mentality.
I think the military is creating a conundrum that will self select for weasels and will fail out more creative energetic personalities.
This will harm combat effectiveness.
avedis
Here is an article that states that what should be expected is, indeed, happening.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/10/12/171046.shtml
A quarter to three quarters of female personnel are reporting having sex while deployed and some females say that estimate is too low.
There are preganancy issues.
There apparently is also harassment issues wherein female personal are basically constantly harassed until providing sex to male troops.
The article further suggests something that gets back to something I posited on a different topic. It is the civilian leadership that is behind these stupid decisions that are damaging the outcome of missions, decreasing military effectiveness and, quite bluntly, getting peple killed.
avedis
Avedis,
i'm not sure about todays army , but a college degree was not always req'd AS LONG AS THE INDIV can finish a Bachelors b/f the 7th year of commissioned service.The army used to call this program=bootstrap.
i have a friend that was an e6 and he's always amazed when i tell him stories that he NEVER EVEN GUESSED that Officers do behind the scenes.
For example as a 1lt i wrote the 8th div regulation for marksmanship training. I had 13 additional duties as a second john. 13!!
The disconnect today is that we say that women perform well in combat but this ain't true. we have an army that has seen a lot of violence but little if any real combat. Having burger kings after a patrol while waiting for a pedicure, massage and hair dresser appt ain't exactly the Chosin reservoir.oh yeah air conditioned/heated hootches/swimming pools.Umh.!
i knew you'd weigh in on this'un.
jim
avedis,
CSM King has a Masters degree.
for these you must read between the lines. these degrees are from on post educ. and generally are less stringent than full time attendance. the prof's get students by giving out grades.
it's a scam.that's why bootstrap was so good.sometimes it was called =degree completion. usually this happened after an ocs type did their combat service and was ready for officers career course.
jim
jim
I see that King brushed shoulders with Dick Cheney. Whatever she was exposed to and has kept quiet about is probably the explanation for everything.
Since they probably won't do the right thing and make it official and create a new MOS (O69X - or Army, 69B- geisha girl), why can't they contract with with one of those ranches out there in Nevada. They throw all sorts of $ at contractors to do things that the troops should be able to do just as well any how. Why not set up some cat houses, steam & creams, etc in those countries where troops are deployed?
Of course, I've already answered my own question. Stupid hypocritical provincial right wing religious values that permeate the military establishment. Fucking = bad. Killing = godly mission.
But how much longer can the military/civilian leaders keep their collective head buried in the sand and deny that there is a problem?
avedis
I can't really address the individual - not sure what her deal is or why - but on the subject of sergeants major in general it's always been my personal opinion that the entire rank is not worth the trouble it makes.
First of all..."Command"? A sergeant major commands two things; jack, and shit. The rank was misnamed from the get-go, and IMO a lot of the nonsense we tend to see from CSMs springs from their mistaken notion that they are some sort of mini-warrant officer and not really an enlisted troop any more.
The other reality is that the CSM doesn't really have a "job". NCOs are supposed to be crew- and individual-task trainers as well as organizers and inspectors of troops. But you've got the 1SGs doing this at the company level, the PSGs for the platoons and the squad leaders at the squad level. WTF is a CSM going to do?
In my experience, it's to snowflake the other NCOs in the battalion with useless chickenshit and harass troops hanging around the head shed with stuff like shouting at them to keep off the grass.
So, frankly, what this NCO had hanging or not hanging inside the ACU trousers didn't really mean diddly-squat. She was a commandant of a friggin' fixed TRADOC installation. A damn Capuchin monkey could have done this for less money and probably been less of a pain in the backside to the hats working for her.
chief, i have serious problems with Sgt majors in general. i'm speaking theory and reality.
when a sgt maj comes down to my company and gives instructions to my 1sg about my company then that sgmaj is violating the chain of cmd. if he has directions for my nco's then it should come thru me. if it's the bn cdrs wishes then again it should come thru me.
so what do they do? they ALWAYS violate the chain and also try to browbeat young officers.
that's been my experience.
jim
NCOs exercise intent when they command. Those of you offended, suck it up. NCOs do command NCOES. Additionally, when I was an HHC
Company 1SG, I always got a kick out the officers who wanted to buck my system just because they didn't want to follow the lead of an NCO. With a little support from the CO and the CSM, I usually got my way. NCOs do lead the way!
1SG(R)
Ranger, I do agree that CSMs are primarly part of a problem rather than a solution. The rare CSM whom understands where he fits can be a force mutiplier. However, CSMs are no longer used as NCOs in my opinion. Most CSMs are simply puppets on a string who are not willing to rock the boat when needed, and just follow the CO around like a puppy instead of being with troops. That being said, I found egotistical staff Officers as the biggest problem in my Company. I had a responsibility to fullfill as a 1SG, and I had to fight to get these folks to adhere to the same basic soldier responsibilties as my enlisted men. And for that individual who said NCOs don't command jack or Sheet, he's wrong. NCOs do command NCOES schools. This is another example of that ego.
1sg r,
thanks for your input and welcome to RAW.
you may give an order but ultimately an officer is responsible for ALL that gets done or fails to be done.
bottom fucking line.
jim
Ranger...Thats the plan. However, Officers often push their failures off on NCOs....I have seen it first hand in peacetime and in combat. Just conduct a roll call at leavenworth. I don't want to stereotype because I have worked for some fine Officers. NCOs lead the way!
1SG (R), any butter bar one week post graduation from Quantico still out ranks the most senior of NCOs. And he (the Lt) will lead from the front.
Granted, the NCOs in his command will *best interpret* how to carry out orders issued, but that is different. Also concede that the young Lt who fails to pay attention to the advice of his experienced/matured NCOs is on a fast slide into a world of hurt. That said, there is always a careful balance between an officer evaluating and incorporating advice and maintaining respect and not being walked all over by NCOs; because many will certainly try to.
Still doesn't help us sort out what a CSM is - or could be - in command of. I thought "command" was just because they might be hanging around the head shed when not impersonating a wandering hemroid as FDChief notes they are wont to do.
Honestly, if your service is recent, I (personally) am more interested in your outlook fraternization issues during overseas deployments. Thanks.
avedis
Recently retired, yes(2009). A Cavalry Scout, served in Cav and Infantry units my entire career. We never had to worry much about fraternization. I like women and wine as much as any guy, but I am old school and prefered that women stay away from my grunts in combat so they can do what they do. The bottom line is that when you put men and women together, they will play together! As for CSMs, I will only say that many have caused more problems than they ever solved.
Hi 1SG,
Lisa here welcoming a new voice aboard. I hope you will find your retirement a fun adventure.
Jim will see your msgs. tomorrow,
L.
1sg r,
i have ONLY 2 categories of NCO's. i've written this often.
-those that'll help a young officer and the ones that will trick fuck and screw him up. obviously you are the helpful kind.
when soldiers complain to me about having had female officers i tell them-- we didn't have that problem in the infantry. re;your cmt on the Cav.
since you're Cav do you have any cmts on my arts on meeting engagements? i'm sure you are an expert in that area. it is a Cav specialty.
jim
Avedis,
when the shooting starts the men ALWAYS turn to the officer, even if he's a shave tail. if they don't then they were not properly trained.
In my Army the 1sg and plat sgt did the admin and the 2lt led the platoon in combat.
the rule/doctrine that i've seen in every course that i've ever attended is-- CAPTAINS FIGHT THE BATTLES.that is doctrine. there are no qualifiers in it.i'm a simple guy.
we see too many war movies that tend to indicate otherwise.
i served with NCO's who helped form my personality.
i've had NCO's admit to me that they let their leaders, both NCO &O do stupid things and then get themselves killed.this was survival technique. these men trusted me enuf to share this with me.does CSM KING share this knowledge?
most O's won't say this but i lied and broke many regs protecting those under my safe keeping. this is not taught in leadership 101 but it's the way that i rolled.the NCO's knew this and acted accordingly.
jim
Ranger,
For the most part, I think we agree on things. However, Scout Platoon and Cav Troop First Sergeants are more than administrators. I planned and led many combat patrols as both....granted I reported to a LT or Captain. But to say we are simply admin guys.....insulting. Maybe times have just changed. Additionally, to say we lack command perspective.....can't buy that either. NCOs invest a lot of their time taking orders, giving instruction,and doing most of the Army's leg work. This is OJT. On top of that, I personally graduated from a D-1 University. The idea here is that Officers and NCOs share a mutual respect and allow/ help one another to fullfil their role. I realize that there are NCOs who attept to gain power through undercutting Officers. It went both ways. I always tried to uplift my Platoon Leaders and Commanders in the eyes of our soldiers. I wanted everyone to succeed....but I expected the same in return. NCOs command teams have to share a mutual respect for the system to work. Its not about power, or who is more educated. Those days are over, as most Sr NCOs are now very educated. Its about understanding your role and staying in your lane. This where CSMs usually get it wrong. BTW...I enjoy the conversation. Great website!
1sgt r,
just a little question-WHO WRITES YOUR 1SGT EER???
What about the CSM-who writes his?
bottom line.?!
jim
All I read here is exactly why we have a problem. NCOvsCommisioned officer...For those of you who think NCOs do not Command try this. I was Convoy Commander of more than 500 nasty convoys in combat. Every officer that ever rode along never questioned my authority for that position and took orders from me. When the shit hits the fan strong leaders push forward and take Command no matter what is on their collar. Even during ambushes, etc...They all came home alive under my command. I have also served as dual hat Platoon Sergeant/Platoon Leader because my PL was a horrible leader even though I just about killed myself trying to teach. While I think at times CSMs can be useless, it matters not whether you wear stripes or brass there are ineffective leaders on both sides. For many years, NCOs were looked upon as second class in the Army. This has changed due to the ability of the NCO to gain that education. My last assignment I had a new major to our unit who only had a Bachelors degree. I had completed my masters at the 15 year mark. And yes it was from an accredited university. The ability for the enlisted soldier to obtain education now has brought empowerment to the enlisted side of the house. Stop with the tit for tat whos in command, whos not in command...I know how the Officer corp operates as I have seen it at the highest levels in the Army, literally. lets stop with the BS and carry on with the business of the Army.
Ranger
The 1SG and CSM write their own NCOERs...the Officers most time just sign it.
I never looked at it as Officers taking my orders. I looked at it as a mutual respect. Officers and NCOs work together toward the solution. When I had humble commanders, we got a lot done together. The lines are blurred now....NCOs are more educated and combat experienced than most Jr. Officers. Ranger comes for the old Army and has a tough time accepting that NCO's now lead the way! There are still some O's on active duty that can't get over it as well. Sr NCOs just don't need to be told what we are supposed to be doing anymore. True...I always wrote my own NCOERs and my O reviewed and signed. However, they usually added something productive to it before signing.
1sg -r,
i reckon you don't seem to care that you violated several regulations by writing your own eer.
if the system does not have integrity then it's a joke.
i always asked my nco's for input that they felt was req'd for their professional development and then proceeded accordingly.
i always discussed imp. items with them also, but i always wore the bars.i listened to their advice. to a point in which the decision was rendered.
all of this was taught in all of our O education courses.
it amazes me that 220 years of policy and precedents have been shit canned.
can you please cite the FM sources that indicate the veracity of your position? where does it say that nco's command.
i'd really like to know so i can understand the new action army.
jim
You must have mistaked me for Anonymous. I did not post as Anonymous. My argument in not that NCOs command, however it has become very obvious that you despise educated and effective NCOs. Additionally, I wrote my own NCOERs because I was "commanded" by an Officer to do so. Please read where I stated that my Officers reviewed/approved of my writings. This validates my NCOER, especially when an O signs it! Don't shoot me because an Officer didn't want to spend time writing my NCOER! They simply wanted me to do the labor. Most of the time, it would have arrived late to DA if I waited for my O to write it. As an NCO, I never allowed any of my jr NCOs to write their own evaluations. Sorry to break the news to you Jim, NCOs now lead the way! Roger out!
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