Picture Perfect
photo by Ali Yussef, AFPDon't shoot shotgun,
You got me bitin' my lip
--Don't Shoot Shotgun, Def Leppard
______________
Please note the #2 soldier in line has his rifle pointed exactly at the lead man's head. Also, there is no all-around or rear security evident.
We have been in this country since Christ was a corporal and spent untold billions on their police and Army training. It doesn't look like we have a very good return on our investment.
This would seem to dispel the propaganda about the effectiveness of the training for this organization. We are open to being convinced otherwise. If you beg to differ, send just one photo of them doing it correctly and we will publish it.
Labels: iraqi police poorly trained, phony war on terror, PWOT
posted by Lisa at 5:00 PM
15 Comments:
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/6344/12230768ti2.jpg
Though I will confess that I had to dig around a bit.
I'd add that the recent performance of our Georgian advisees makes me wonder if our military advisors and trainers aren't being picked by low GT score or the POI they're using comes directly from Ft. Benning circa 1903...
Why is it that, if we had to pick a model for our foreign auxiliries we picked the ARVN and not the Philippine Scouts?
Chief, the only thing that Benning exports of quality WAS the training at the SOA and it's torture block of instruction.As for )# you are on board as water torture was used v. Phillipine g's.
jim
sheerahkhan, i really hope this ain't your best shot.! Here we goooooo.
-they are bunched up. one grenade would wreak havoc.But then again somebody could jump on it and BE A HERO, a dead hero. Or the Iraqis could throw the American advisor on it and canonize him as a hero AND martyr.Both are good things in this war.
-The soldier or cop on the right has his weapon pointed at the floor which is useless. The threat is up the stairs and all weapons should be pointed there for quik fire.
- The stock of the AK next to the advisor is Folded- therefore it is not ready to employ EXCEPT as a spray and pray mode.
-do these jokers have all around security? we can't tell from the photo so i'll give you that one.
-Not all the rifles are at the ready- they're at a lazy half port administrative posture which is not conducive to long life and happiness.
thanks for your effort and entry. jim
To All,
It also grabs my ass that these are supposedly cops> They are trained and equipped to fight as infantry SO why are they called cops? jim
FDC, my cmt to you screwed up the 03 date. Pls remember this when you read it.. jim
Following up on FDChief's comment, and having some experience in this area, I'd advise the Chief that the raw material with which one works has a great deal to do with the outcome.
Actually, an awful lot of ARVN guys were excellent soldiers. Vietnam is far more complicated than just bad-mouthing the ARVN. You can do a lot with Asians. The Koreans weren't worth a damn in the early years, but became formidable later, thanks to U.S. training and their own innate characteristics. Then there are the Japanese and Chinese. In my experience, leadership and training can make a tremendous difference with Asians.
I don't know much about the people in the southern tier of the former USSR, e.g., Georgia, etc., but I'd be hesitant to attribute any poor performance to U.S. advisers, who haven't been there long enough to make much of a difference. What I do know about these folks is that they can be mean sons of bitches.
And then there is the Mideast, where there are some other factors that may influence military aptitude and performance. Cough-cough.
Actually, I thought he had a good position. When the hostiles take out the guy, he'll have a clear field of fire. Besides, he didn't like the guy anyway.
Just to finish my train of thought here, I wouldn't want to be walking point in front of these guys either.
sheerahkhan,
Just scanning through my comments, and wanted to say I hope you did not take my response to you as flip. That wasn't my intent, but this email is an imprecise medium.
I enjoy your comments at Graphic Firing Table, and hope you will continue to comment here as you see fit.
There are volumes that I could write on the pix you sent. It's a great teaching point about combat versus COIN considerations.
In the infantry mode, I'd suppress the entire fucking building with grenades and suppressive fires to overcome my inherent weakness of approaching an objective w/o the ability to go on line and maximize my firepower. That's the infantry part of my brain.
Now in COIN these guys you sent in your pix are probably doing the best they can, so your point is taken. Still, there are a lot of deficiencies that I've noted.
Approaching in file is an inherently weak tactic that is dictated by the stairwell. I'd isolate the building and force them to come out. If they didn't, then I'd put on my infantry hat.
I feel the troops often get in too big a hurry, when they could slow down and develop the situation logically.
As an afterthought, I'd have some shotguns going forward up the steps as my my initial point element. jim
Publius,
From my experience the Koreans were pretty strack. Of course that could have been later in the time scheme. As the Vietnamese said, American GI number one, ARVN number 10, Korean number f#*%*ing ten thousand! They were pretty efficient to the point of being brutal or as you said, in their own innate way.
Jim, I had a visit last week with an officer Canadian Army. Very enjoyable and enlightening. He got back from a tour in Afghanistan training the Afghan army out of one of the large cities. You've all seen these pictures of the Iraqi's and Afghans with two hands on the AK above their head firing.
He said some of them were good but most wouldn't aim, they'd just hold the AK up with both hands, pull the trigger and it was Allah's will if they killed or got killed. Everything was Allah's will.
Lots of interesting stuff I'll share if it comes up.
tw
No problem Jim,
I was looking at muzzles, and eye work (I being policed trained, not infantry, so my viewpoint is from law-enforcement), where was everyone's eyes and barrels looking/pointed at.
And yeah...unfortnately, that was the best one I could find.
there was one pic, and if I can find it again I'll send it on by, that is proof that G-d favors/pity's fools.
U.S. trained armies don't seem to have done too well over the past forty years. The photos of Georgian tanks and armored vehicles being reclaimed by Russian forces after being abandoned by the Georgian Army as it fled reminded me of the ARVN during the Easter Offensive (1972). The ARVN lost most of its tanks and artillery during that offensive not because they were destroyed by the invading NVA, but because they were abandoned by the soldiers who were supposed to be manning them. U.S. fighter jets had to come in and blow them up with bombs just to keep them from falling into NVA hands.
And we see that same pattern in Iraq. In Georgia. In Afghanistan. On one blog I frequent, there is a picture of a Georgian Army issued M4 Carbine in the hands of a Russian soldier. It looks brand new. Never fired, only dropped once. Deja vu all over again.
sheerahkahn.
I look at these things 3 ways
-SF/coin
-Ranger/infantry-
-Police.
let's do it all.
sf/coin- there must be restraint BUT also solid tactical employment. But in reality these fools are not police they are commandos pretending to be police , and they're doing it improperly. Your muzzle must be where your eyes are looking. With auto weapons used V. you there is no time to swing your weapon to get on target. That is why all around security is so imp. In all 3 scenarios.
Ranger/ in direct assault- the old rule of thumb is- if you are killing a fly then use a hammer. Real simple but slowing down the tempo MAY save friendly lives.I bet in 1,2,3 there are no negotiators which ups the violence level.This is pure unadulterated death dealing scenario from both sides of the equation.and this entry is not violent enuf for direct action.
3 police. I was never a police type but i taught at the USARMY MP SCH. as a training specialist and instructed in the SRT, Hostage negotiator, physical security/ nuc sec courses. obc/oac on terrorism counteraction subjects - therefore i have a operational knowledge even if i was not an mp.Of the 3 items i discuss i definitely trust the mp's the least.They lack something where the rubber meets the road., they try too hard to pretend that they are actually soldiers.This along with West pointers are my sticking points.
If god did nor suffer fools then i'd probably be long gone:)jim
Perhaps the lead man is a supporter of the occupation?
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