RANGER AGAINST WAR: Bennie and the Jets <

Monday, April 13, 2009

Bennie and the Jets


However beautiful the strategy,
you should occasionally look at the results
--Winston Churchill


We could go kick down some doors together

stay out 'til morning sharp as knives

the new war will get you it will not protect you

--Paper Tiger
, Spoon

And what was all that shit about Vietnam?

What the FUCK, has anything got to do with Vietnam?

--The Big Lebowski
(1998)
_________________

Ranger has sent us a dispatch from the road from an article in that most mainstream of MSM, the
USA Today entitled (in a clever triple-entendre) "Impact of Airstrikes in Afghanistan Measured."

"Military commanders in Afghanistan reduced their reliance on airstrikes in 2008, records show, a change that experts say reflects the limitations of air power against a resilient insurgency."

"The limits of air power show why more ground troops are needed to provide security, said Dakota Wood, a military analyst at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments."

So. . . we need more troops to provide security. . . then we'll need more airpower to provide security for the troops. A nice mobius strip, shouldered by the American taxpayer.


"Commanders depend on airstrikes in Afghanistan more than in Iraq because jets can respond quickly to ambushed troops spread thinly across mountainous countryside. Afghanistan is larger than Iraq and has a higher population but about one-third the number of coalition forces. There are already 38,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan."

The said protective cover sounds heartwarming, until one sees the facts.

First, if the troops are doing their job, they should not be ambushed. If they are, however, organic indirect firepower is the most responsive to the engaged units.


There are also Army aviation assets that should be readily available to engaged units. The combined arms teams, even sans Armor, are a synergistic tool capable of handling any Taliban threat. Army assets are responsible to the ground commander or the TF commander, and are a better tool than Air Force guided bombs.


"Lacking sufficient manpower to displace the Taliban and maintain control of these areas, the U.S. has had to employ airstrikes to inflict costs on the enemy."

Without boots on the ground or eyes on the target all airstrikes are futile efforts and the only effect is the cost of the ordnance. But it's all in a day's work for the taxpayer, natch (
Thank you, sir -- may we have another?)

Gen. David McKiernan is quoted as saying the Taliban seeks to create backlash against coalition efforts there by using civilians as "shields," an urban myth in U.S. war lore.
The Taliban is not using civilians as shields -- they are the civilians. As NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said, "The basic problem in Afghanistan is not too much Taliban; it's too little good governance."

Even if the charge were true, don't bomb, strafe or fire up the civilian shield or the Taliban in question. Set up blocking positions and ambushes into and out of the Area of Operation.

"In January, USA TODAY reported that Afghan insurgents had learned to attack U.S. troops and scatter before they could be hit by airstrikes, a tactic that has limited the amount of bombs dropped."

It is ridiculous that the enemy can fade away before airstrikes arrive on station. If it is so important to kill these people, then use good old Army and Marine assigned assets. Any commander that sends out an element without indirect fire support is criminally negligent. Artillery is the Infantry's lifeline.

"Those warplanes also fly surveillance missions and will buzz enemy forces in "shows of force" that prompt insurgents to retreat from attacks..."

Ranger bets the Taliban would get a laugh out of that concept. The U.S. is romping and stomping all over their country, and we are trying to intimidate hardened fighters with free air shows? Well, it's good for an Air Medal.

It is Ranger's take that the Taliban or insurgents in Afghanistan operate at the platoon level, and possibly at understrength Company level. These forces will never equal the Regimental attacks on U.S. Special Forces camps in the Vietnam War.


The Taliban are small, localized organizations that have no semblance to main force Vietcong units that had crossed over to conventional forces. If there are large scale Afghan insurgent attacks, these will be in the larger towns.


A conventional U.S rifle platoon with attached assets and proper fire support should easily handle an insurgent company. The old rule of thumb for the defense was one defender to three attackers; in the offense, three attackers for each defender. These figures are based on fighting organized, sophisticated enemies (not people in shower shoes and sandals.)


If a U.S. rifle Company cannot fight an equal number of insurgents, then something is awfully wrong with today's Army. If the Afghans or the Iraqis would fight like the NVA, things might be touch and go. Every small unit leader should be able to fire plan, both offensively and defensively.


Forget the jets --use artillery!

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30 Comments:

Blogger Joe B said...

But planes are so much more pretty!

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 8:05:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger FDChief said...

And both the USA and USAF have been working hard to make fast movers the arty of tomorrow.

The other real question is, why is it that we see this whole "U.S. unit gets ambushed while travelling" theme? Could it be because our local intel is so poor that we seldom initiate contact? Could it be because our units, instead of knowing and owning the ground they operate in, are usually armed tourists driving around drawing fire?

Where have we seen THIS before?

Sheesh.

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 8:51:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Chief,
MY cmt is not for you b/c I KNOW THAT YOU KNOW the following.
In the attack insurgents and good infantry will hug your belt to nuetralize the air/arty advantage of government forces. Like wise the Guerrilla will break contact to avoid incoming air. This is as natural as applepie and the US military seems to be astounded by this eventuality.??Any light infantry will break contact as soon as they put the hurt on you- it needn't be a big bang -any bang will do it for them. Afterall it's a great training tool. I'll bet some of the actions we'll see in Afgh will be Taliban training exercises.
These concepts apply equally to the defense also., except it seems that the Taliban usually engage offensively rather that reactively, therefore your cmt. on intel is sound as a wedding pecker.
jim

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 10:39:00 AM GMT-5  
Anonymous Grant L said...

I can vouch for the air show factor. I saw numerous expensive jets fly over at low level, and I couldn't help but ask "Well what good did that do me? If you don't drop a bomb on that building, I still have to go over and clear it."

As for ambushes, I don't really want artillery reigning down on me while I'm trying to fight through a near one.

I would also point out that it's possible that the units getting ambushed might not be the well-trained infantry platoon you mention. They might be NG troops who are less well equipped and less well trained who only want to get the convoy from point A to B without losing a nut. My unit took many less casualties than a lot of comparable NG units, but it wasn't because we did less.

So... yeah, there is something wrong with today's military. Which would be scary if it wasn't so sad.

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 10:46:00 AM GMT-5  
Anonymous sheerahkahn said...

Personally,
I think the show is over.
What called it for me...that "fly by" show of force.
Great, it works with criminals when the squad car rolls down the street.
"WHOOPS, Cops, act cool, and keep walking."

You know...I bet if we just "declared Victory" and went home...those assholes would be right back at killing each other for whatever asinine reason they concoct.
I'm done with Afghanistan and Iraq...I wash my hands of both.

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 10:57:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Grant,
Ambushes are near or far as you point out.
Far ambushes are more appropriate for PREPLANNED fires on all likely ambush sites/locations.Far ambushes are a bitch since the beaten zone is usually larger and casualties can happen very readily by the nature of the fire. Usually heavier weapons are used so they are maximized in their violence.
Near ambushes shouldn't happen in an ideal world. This world depends on leadership at EVERY level up to the BN CDR. The main element should never trigger the ambush- now I know that defiles and mountain passes are restrictive and favor ambushes therefore units should use overwatch and preventive fires of H and i variety. In effect send a round where a man shouldn't go. The only indire I'd trust in close ambush support would be mortar hip firing.

It's actually a pleasure talking to a young veteran.
jim

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 11:01:00 AM GMT-5  
Anonymous fnord said...

"The Taliban is not using civilians as shields -- they are the civilians."

Sir, with all due respect, thats not exactly true. Af/Pak (oh what a term) is so fckin complicated ethnically, socialy etc. that its like a 3-D mahjong puzzle. The Taleban are in many parts the mirror of Hezbollah, forces surviving their xth year in the field.

"Forget the jets --use artillery!"

I hope you mean more mortar bats, etc for close support and not the big shit...? The scary part of Af/Pak is that at the most against the russians, they mounted 120 000, and right now we are between 20 and 30 000 active in the oppos. If artillery and large scale saturation takes hold, we may wake the dragon.

with all due respect, I showed your creds to a friend just now. ;-) (Have you followed Phil Carter from Intel-Dump btw? Thats interesting...)

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 1:14:00 PM GMT-5  
Anonymous fnord said...

http://easterncampaign.wordpress.com/

and registan.net are good resources, btw.

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 2:47:00 PM GMT-5  
Blogger Ghost Dansing said...

operation cyclone

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 3:52:00 PM GMT-5  
Anonymous Grant L said...

I definitely agree with your idea of what should happen, but again, war has a nasty way of messing up the best plans. I guess I just got used to operating without indirect fire support since it took an O-6 or above to authorize indirect fire in urban areas.

The only near ambush I was ever in while dismounted happened when my squad happened upon an overwatch position for a mortar team. In urban environments that sort of thing is a fact of life, you just walk around a corner for the thousandth time and there are some guys in a ditch with guns.

Most of the ambushes happened while mounted, and it was usually initiated with an IED. The goal was to immobilize the first vehicle so we would stop, and then chew us up while we were getting out of those godawful "hunter boxes" (I'll email you a picture if you want). In those cases, there were no likely ambush positions, because buildings line the MSRs and they have the ability to operate from any of them. If they disable a vehicle, they know we are going to stop.

Pound for pound and dollar for dollar, attached indirect fire support is definitely something I want on my side. They want to make it sound like these planes can be everywhere at once when that isn't the case, and they can't do the sorts of things they claim. All of these tools have a place, but they aren't substitutes for each other.

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 4:38:00 PM GMT-5  
Anonymous Grant L said...

It should be noted I never deployed to Afghanistan, though, only twice to Iraq. I like to say I did three tours of Fort Bragg, though.

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 4:41:00 PM GMT-5  
Blogger FDChief said...

My question to Grant would be - since as a redleg I'm sorta/kinda familiar with the problems in clearing urban fires (i.e. you usually don't get it) - our "react to near ambush" convoy SOP called for returning near ambush RPG/MG fire with massed AT-4s and calling for company and battalion mortars. Same-same you?

(Note that in the old days it would have been the attached CSC recoilless rifle and 90mm RR from the heavy weapons squad)

I don't get all the fast movers. The danger close makes them impractical for a near ambush ("hugging the belt", as Jim remembers it from the RVN) and the certainty of civilian casualties makes them undesireable for far ambush. ISTM like lose-lose all the way around.

And don't get me started on F/A-16s and -18s versus A-10s...

But to elaborate on Grant's point: clearance of fires for FA is very complicated in a non-linear, unconventional battlefield. FSOs/FSEs will tend to deny when they're unsure, and as a result you'll end up waiting a looooong time for FA fires. Sorry, Jim, but the redlegs of today are a lot different from the cannoncockers of the RVN. We mostly wish it wasn't so, but it is.

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 5:58:00 PM GMT-5  
Blogger FDChief said...

And re: Grant's comment about attached indirect fire support...

One real problem I saw while working infantry mortars is that light infantry company mortars are piss-weak. Not because of the mortars (although I'm not a huge fam of the 60mm system) or the mortar crews, but because:

1. Typically the infantry company commander thinks of his mortars last, if at all. The result is that usually they are not in a good position to provide support for a platoon in contact. To make matters worse, in drive-by wars like Iraq and the 'Stan, I can't imagine that most of the platoons are in supported range of the 60s. And,

2. The mortar section never has enough rounds for an effective FFE except in exceptional circumstances. SOP calls for the entire company to carry a round or two and for the tactical plan to figure a way to get the rounds to the mortars. In practice, the only time I've ever seen this happen is either in a deliberate attack or in the defense. Patrolling and movements-to-contact are the worst situations for this. The mortars are caught in a hipshoot with only the rounds that an eight-man section can carry plus whatever straphangers are around when the call for fire comes in.

I've never seen a situation where the actual field performance of the 60mm section matches what the FM says they can do.

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 6:08:00 PM GMT-5  
Blogger Lisa said...

Joe,

I think you have the idea. Top Gun did bring lots of recruits, eh?

Grant: I would love to see a photo, if you wouldn't mind transmitting.

Fnord: Thanks for the links, and I do check in with Phil Carter, brilliant as always.

Afraid I can't comment on any of the particulars, though I appreciate the intelligent dialog.

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 7:26:00 PM GMT-5  
Anonymous Grant L said...

Oh, several points to address, and I've been drinking (my team won trivia night! WOOT!) so I'll try to address them as I see them.

First, to respond to an ambush, the procedure was "everything you've got in the convoy". That meant AT-4s, 50 cals, 240s, SAWs, and everyone with an M4. It never meant indirect fires. Part of it was the lack of approval but you're right, we stayed in "company operations points" (warehouses or mansions or other buildings we took over) and that's where the mortars set up, if we happened to be lucky enough to go on a refit then we were going to FOB and were out of range.

To FDC:

It was a rare engagement where the company commander came into play. Usually the highest person contacted was a 2LT, and he just happened to be on patrol with a squad plus gun team. Hadji isn't so dumb as to attack a full strength platoon of paratroopers, but if they get ten or twenty guys they will try to take on a short squad plus a gun team. Again, indirect fires aren't authorized in general and nobody really ever though to ask for an exception lol. What the CO thought never was an issue, to be honest.

In my opinion (which is only the opinion of an E-3 thru E-5 during two six month tours of Iraq) it seemed that the Army didn't want to fight the war they were fighting, and were scrambling to adapt to what was going on. I will send a picture of the hunter boxes my platoon got trans in, and I will try to describe them here.

They are LMTVs with half inch plates welded to the sides with turret things like a castle on it. There was one ladder to get off on, and I didn't have much faith in the half inch steel on the sides. By the grace of God nobody ever hit us with an IED. As with all military equipment, the maximum load is "one more".

Again, I have no idea how things are there now, since it's been a hundred years (or three) since I was in Iraq, but looking back, the things I went through make me go "Damn. Really?"

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 at 11:06:00 PM GMT-5  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Grant
You are describing the use of mortars as defensive tools and this is fine BUT i would use them offensively. In a ambush scenario the G's must have an escape or exfil route and an ORP therefore as a combat leader you should think past your nose and fire on these areas AFTER the ambush is nuetralized. Maybe you'll hit some meat.It's what we do. I'm speaking tactically .

You talk of convoys and ambushes and i talk of ambushes of purely combat arrayed elements of fighters. That's the difference between wars it seems. We in RVN didn't have a FLOT/ FEBA but we seem to have had a better tactical protective posture. This is hard for me to say as we were so fucked in so many ways - it seems that your experience is worse than was ours. xin loi.
Hip shooting with mortars is excellent in fast moving fights and of this i know since i was a mortar platoon leader in another life.
jim

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 8:58:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Grant,
I failed to say that I'm always proud of Airborne soldiers regardless of the war they fought.
jim

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 9:10:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

FDChief,
Your cmts are exactly correct but my hip shot cmts imply that in the convoy mode or working out ot hummv's or other vehicles then the Army should think of ways to mount mortars. Did you ever see the Wehrmacht in the attack w/o their light mortars? This is a lifeline that we're ignoring.
If i do get the secdef job then you'll be my mortar czar.
jim

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 9:15:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

FDChief,
I'm not sure the quality is different but rather the command relationships.We no longer have echelons above corps nor do we seem to have DIVARTY/corps/theater assets since we have the combat BDEteam concept. This leaves TF's short of DS/GS/GSR fires: it's doubtful in my opinion that these are even considered in the PWOT. I hope i'm wrong but i don't think so. This info is hard to ascertain since it's OPSEC type facts. Also our discussion indicates that organic assets are being under utilized or being tactically side lined.
Since we are TROGS the SIB's used to have the Division slice of indirect fire assigned directly to the Separate Brigade-example 173rd ABn .The new Bde teams don't seem to have this slice of Arty/CS/CSS which is a real weakness in doctrine.
jim
jim
jim

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 9:26:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

FDChief,
Where is the M106 gun track these days?
jim

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 9:28:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Fnord,
Of course , i'm speaking of 60/81/4.2 mortars organically employed. I have no use for anything larger in COIN. But are we fighting COIN?
The literature that i read as open source indicates that the Taliban has popular support or should we say that the people are anti-colonial anti-occupation. I stand behind my cmt- the Taliban are the people.
Phil Carter was/ is one of RAWs earliest friends and we have a great respect for his work.
As for creds- what i say could be posited by a good 2LT with a little brains but i try to tie it all together with my institutional knowledge. IE my cmts about EAC is from my CGSC education and working on div/corps and above major exercises.One could get the same from simply studying history.
My experience is that the TF commander MUST command all assets to be successful and violating this unity of command concept is self destructive. The entire PWOT/COIN violates this principle.
I'm glad to hear from you.
jim

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 9:40:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Grant,
There's been no cmt by you re; secondary ambushes.What is your experience?
As a UW/GW enemy my focus would be the secondary which gets clumps of targets into the kill zone. This was a VC/IRA specialty.
As for getting O6 clearance to fire i say the following-if you laid all the COLs in the army head to toe you wouldn't ever reach a decision.
jim

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 9:44:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

Chief,
A small clarification.
In the old days the 90/106 would be in the HHC weapons platoon.
This discussion is interesting b/c we have 3 generations in the discourse.
jim

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 10:34:00 AM GMT-5  
Anonymous Grant L said...

Sorry. In terms of secondary ambushes, I'm not sure I saw one that fits your description. A typical tactic was using the IEDs to maneuver us into kill zones, and then hit us with what they could and then run. They were a lot more interested in living to fight another day than into trying to take advantage of any tactical situation. I guess they understood that killing a few more infantry isn't a strategic objective whereas their terror cell escaping allowed them to continue to harass us and disrupt life in Iraq, which essentially is all they have to do to win.

All of my combat experiences were heavily influenced by the presence of civilians with the exception of a few cities that were declared hostile and different ROE applied, but even then the use of indirect fire was frowned upon. I think urban areas just don't lend themselves to the kind of use of fire support you are talking about, at least in Iraq, though I see your points about the scenarios you mentioned. It definitely shouldn't be written off the way it has been, no tool should be.

Truly offensive operations for my unit were rare. Most things consisted of patrols in smaller and smaller elements until we got the enemy to engage us. They aren't about to start shooting at 30 paratroopers, but if you start to send out a short squad plus a gun team, you can get the local militia or whoever to start taking shots at you. That puts the squad in a precarious position, of course, so I didn't much like it, but it helped us find the insurgents. Every now and then we'd get intel and go on some raids, we actually did a lot of those, but most of the time we didn't fire shots. A squad of paratroopers blowing through your door in the middle of the night will have you flex cuffed before the flash bang wears off, and they were much more valuable alive in most cases.

I recall having a conversation with a man who was a company commander in the Korean War. I said something along the lines of "Wow, that was a shitty war" to him and he just smirked at me and said "Have you looked at the one you're in?"

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 12:03:00 PM GMT-5  
Blogger FDChief said...

Grant, Jim: What comes across to me is that Grant's war was more mounted patrol that anything I think Jim or I are familiar with. My service years were heavily influenced by Jim's time in the RVN. We trained for contact on foot out in the tules, and mounted while on the MSR/resupply route. In both cases you had a tactical plan that allowed for preplotted fires as well as moving the mortars (or handing off the maneuver element from one mortar section/platoon to the next) to ensure full coverage, either for preplanned fires or hipshoots.

I'm heard other Iraq and Afghan vets talk about this sort of "trolling for muj" type patrol, where it seemed like the whole idea was to dangle a squad out where the G's would take a slap at them and then pile on with a QRF. Seemed like a pretty chancey way to run a raffle, to me, but, then, I'm not CGSC material...

Interestingly, Jim, I was in during the oddball period between taking the heavy weapons out of the HHC and today, where they're back in there again. At Bragg during the 1980's all the HHC had were the HQ, cooks, medics, and scouts. Combat Support Company had the two AT sections (M151-mounted TOWS) and the battalion 81mm mortar platoon.

We also had a "Delta Company" per brigade that was an AT company with more TOW jeeps.

Wierd MTO&E. I think it went away with the J-series MTOE in the early Nineties.

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 1:27:00 PM GMT-5  
Anonymous Grant L said...

I would say that overall, the whole Iraq war is much more "mounted patrol" but that 90% of the operations I did were dismounted presence patrols, on-foot movements to contact, or air assault missions. We would get a sector, take over a mansion or warehouse or whatever, and kick out dismounted patrols, or we would get air assaulted into somewhere with bad guys and clear it out, etc.

Just want to clear that up because nothing made me more annoyed than all the people who didn't have to walk anywhere :)

I didn't like the whole "bait" thing at all but with no intel to do anything else with, higher ups were at a loss. So you throw 7-10 guys out there alone in a hostile city. It's a good way to end up outnumbered and outgunned.

I remember in 2006 during my second tour 2nd platoon shot the hell out of a car with an Iraqi family in it because it didn't stop for the patrol or something. The CO had a company formation and he said "Men, it's become clear to me that we are fighting a counterinsurgency. And in a counterinsurgency, the time between warning shots and lethal force has to be longer than the time it takes to cycle the bolt."

I'm like, it's 2006, you're a captain who went to West Point on his second tour of Iraq, and this event is what has opened your eyes to the fact it's a counterinsurgency? I had that figured out in 2003, I'm way ahead of you, maybe I should be the CO. You are supposedly the best and brightest the military has, you came through WP, you're tabbed up, you command paratroopers, and you have no idea what the hell is going on all around you? Really?

That's one of those times I said to myself "I have to get out of the Army as soon as possible, because these people are crazy".

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 2:23:00 PM GMT-5  
Blogger FDChief said...

Grant: When I was a Bragg, we had a company commander who, during a company ARTEP, got us on line and walked into a prepared defense manned by an entire mech battalion of GAARNG. I think that after the MILES was all keyed off we had something like three guys "alive" in the entire company.

He wound up getting a pat on the ass because when the Georgia Guard guys lit us up their full auto lit up their positions and they were notionally "attrited" by a USAF AC-130 that was orbiting overhead. You see, he'd disabled a mech battalion for the loss of a mere light company of paratroopers.

We'd have been thrilled, except for the fact that we were all "dead".

The logic of certain elements of the officer corps is beyond simple enlisted scum like us.

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 at 7:33:00 PM GMT-5  
Blogger rangeragainstwar said...

FDChief,
Only an idiot would use light infantry to assault dug in prepared mech troops. This O doesn't understand military logic either.
At a 10 to 1 kill ratio we consider COIN to be a going endeavor but I see it as a butcher shop. At 100 to 1 it's still unsustainable.
jim

Thursday, April 16, 2009 at 10:09:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger Fasteddiez said...

On the subject of Air over Arty: This had been decided as early as Tora Bora and Shahikot Valley in Bananastan. An after action report stated that coming in all armored up with artillery would remind the Bananastanis of the Russians. Oh by all means, let's fuck the troopies, lest we subject the drooling goatherds to the Deja-vu syndrome.

The above operations also featured Pashtuni versus Northern Alliance members as support, or as breach of support.

Operation Anaconda in the Shah-i-Kot valley was a cluster from the word go. A good Book to read on that sorry episode is linked, as are Links Here and Here.To add insult to injury, the latter op featured a grunt task force of 400, to be landed in two sets of sticks 3 and 1/2 hours apart. This brilliance was hatched by a full divisional staff to support the 400. Their Intel said they expected anywhere between 200 to 1000 AQ, armed lightly. They also surmised that the majority of this crew of wogs would all be located on the valley floor. Why would they want to climb those mean mountains? Why would they want to bring up mortars, and 12.7mm and 14,5mm thingies up those mean mountains?

Ask the troops and AH-64 drivers. The idiot who wrote a lessons learned doc, intimated that the boys adapted well, once they overcame all sorts of nasty surprises. He glossed over all the stuff, I just lightly covered, thinking nothing was awry with the staff planning and leadership.

These armed Forces are screwed for the foreseeable future unless a Zhukov like character comes in and cleans house like he did in the battle for Moscow (with extreme prejudice).

A good web site for Afghan updates is Here.Another reason for the banishment of artillery? Who gets to perform ad hoc: MP duty, palace guards for large bases, convoy escorts, checkpoint stooges, etc?

As for Bananastani TTP's, Michael Yon has a good one on his Site. just scroll down the page for the link to download the whole powerpoint presentation.

What you will notice, is that the tactics outlined are all repeats from Afgan vs Soviets, BoDoi VS French, Marvin and US. Natch, a grunt battalion has to come up with this stuff, because there is NO institutional memory. Furthermore Genruls who run Academic centers of excellence are precluded from thinking, on account of They're fixin' to retire and make the big bucks fellatin' them boys over on Wall Street and Globo Avenue.

I will post another comment a bit later.

Thursday, April 16, 2009 at 3:13:00 PM GMT-5  
Anonymous Andy said...

I've seen the air side of things in Afghanistan and Iraq and they are handled pretty differently. You've got a lot more arty in Astan because it's a more rural fight. You see a lot more A-10's there too for similar reasons. Most arty in Astan seems to be on the firebases. I don't know much about the small stuff - don't have any experience there.

There are a few reasons air power is used extensively instead of arty. Some are, briefly:

1. Army turned it's arty folks into truck drivers sometime around 2005.

2. Air provides better SA through sensors and rover datalinks.

3. Air is currently ahead in terms of precision.

4. Most engagements are short, so arty's sustained-fire advantage over air isn't as important.

5. Logistics.

6. Air offers non-kinetic options, AKA "show of force." I was skeptical about these too, but the Army guys have us do more of these than anything else - they love it. A lot of it is the tendency of the enemy to bug-out when the air arrives. They're also more reluctant to initiate contact with aircraft in the area.


Jim,

The Taliban is not using civilians as shields -- they are the civilians.Yes and no. Generalizing about Afghanistan is usually difficult since most things are highly variable. Fighters can be "foreign fighters" (aka Arabs/chechens, etc.), full-time Taliban (or whatever other group), part-time Taliban, part time locals, "contract" hires (local or not), etc. It runs the gamut from the farmer who plants the occasional IED for a bit of cash all the way on up.

They do use noncombatants (almost always women and children) for tactical advantage. Some are willing participants, some are not.

The literature that i read as open source indicates that the Taliban has popular support or should we say that the people are anti-colonial anti-occupation.That depends on what you mean by "popular support" and keep in mind the Taliban (Quetta Shura) aren't the only game in town.

Fasteddiez,

I think we've had a discussion on Afghanistan in 2001-2002 before - we'll probably have to agree to disagree again on that one.

Sunday, April 19, 2009 at 11:17:00 PM GMT-5  

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